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skelterjohn
May 29, 2008, 1:30 PM
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In reply to: I disagree. If the webbing is attached to the rope, then it's just like having an extended harness. No one suggested the webbing was tied directly into a static anchor.
Actually now I see that people are suggesting exactly that. Wow!
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happiegrrrl
May 29, 2008, 2:14 PM
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notapplicable wrote: fjclimbsrocks wrote: Finally, I'd like to go on record as sympathizing with the poor b@stard in the middle. He was likely pinned to the wall unable to move up or down while people screamed, shouted and weilded cutlery all around him  Man oh man, I bet he was shittin bricks. I would have had both hands on the rock praying that she didnt figure out a way to kill me along with herself. Oh yeah and this thread is just about the funniest thing I have read in a long damn time. Good, good stuff.
....but the guy who witnessed the thing wrote about that middle guy later dropping a #1 that nearly hit him and "warning" him with a 'yo, head's up, dude" sort of thing.... Plus, the middle guy was able to communicate cleary with the leader, according to the witness' account.
Plus, he allowed a tie in situation with someone on himself instead of on an active belay from the leader. One would have to wonder why.
Plus.....if I am correct in the understanding, he was off the route and around the arete in the first place, and the dangler had no choice but to follow him. How that happened - I am guessing the leader didn't place a "breadcrumb trail" piece to show them just where to exit onto the face.
So, I'm not so sure middleman somehow found themselves in an unfathomable situation by a twist of fates.
Plus, hanging in the middle, he was stuck, no doubt. Which sucks! But except for that, I don't see how he would have been in any danger except for perhaps dying of embarrassment.
(This post was edited by happiegrrrl on May 29, 2008, 2:17 PM)
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WVUCLMBR
May 29, 2008, 3:42 PM
Post #103 of 228
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This is why you won't see WVUCLMBR @ the gunks anytime soon....sure we get our fare share of trad-tards, but this seems like a whole mountain full of them.
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Gmburns2000
May 29, 2008, 3:52 PM
Post #104 of 228
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WVUCLMBR wrote: This is why you won't see WVUCLMBR @ the gunks anytime soon....sure we get our fare share of trad-tards, but this seems like a whole mountain full of them.
Please, please, PLEASE spread this word every where you go to every climber you meet.
Thanks.
Greg
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rtwilli4
May 29, 2008, 3:56 PM
Post #105 of 228
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this isn't the picture of the part we are talking about is it? If it is then everyone involved should be tossed off that ledge. If what was said above was true (the second had communication with the leader), and this is the actual party that we are talking about, then lowering is the obvious solution.
I can't believe that this is the actual party from that day... its not is it?
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WVUCLMBR
May 29, 2008, 3:57 PM
Post #106 of 228
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According to my indian friend (feather not dot) shawanagunks is indian for "place full of retards".
I will spread the word greg.
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shockabuku
May 29, 2008, 4:06 PM
Post #107 of 228
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That's the ledge but the part of the climb where she was hanging is on the other side of the arete and overhanging.
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bobruef
May 29, 2008, 4:08 PM
Post #108 of 228
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rtwilli4 wrote: [image]http://www.gunks.com/photopost/data/500/High_E_2.jpg[/image] this isn't the picture of the part we are talking about is it? If it is then everyone involved should be tossed off that ledge. If what was said above was true (the second had communication with the leader), and this is the actual party that we are talking about, then lowering is the obvious solution. I can't believe that this is the actual party from that day... its not is it?
Lowering was the obvious option, however, the incident occurred around the corner from this.
As you can see, there are two climbers, and three on the ledge. According to Eman, this was the pair of seconds of the first party getting started on the climb. The second party of 3 is watching. This isn't an action shot of the c-f that was soon to come.
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Gmburns2000
May 29, 2008, 4:39 PM
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WVUCLMBR wrote: According to my indian friend (feather not dot) shawanagunks is indian for "place full of retards". I will spread the word greg.
sweet 
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crackers
May 29, 2008, 4:40 PM
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It's of the party. The incident happend about 15 feet due up from where the bottom person is scrumming, about 10 minutes after the snapshot was taken.
The guy who took the picture wanted a photo of the mess that he was watching before he even realized how it was going to degenerate into an all time highlight reel of darwin award near misses...
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fjclimbsrocks
May 29, 2008, 11:43 PM
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WVUCLMBR wrote: This is why you won't see WVUCLMBR @ the gunks anytime soon....sure we get our fare share of trad-tards, but this seems like a whole mountain full of them.
That's a pretty stupid attitude. Do you mean to tell me that beginners at your local crag have never made stupid mistakes? I doubt it. You could also come to the Gunks and climb routes above 5.8 or 5.9. I'm sure others will agree, nOObs rarely tread above 5.8 there. The weekdays also happen to be relatively nOOb free. But if you are scared by a few nOObs on a busy weekend, by all means, stay home.
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majid_sabet
May 30, 2008, 12:14 AM
Post #112 of 228
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I wish someone had a video camera to dump this show on youtube.
Classic n00bee d000bs exploring rocks
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WVUCLMBR
May 30, 2008, 12:25 PM
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I guess I'm coming from hearing my dad rave about the gunks for years only to lately hear about all types of issues there. Maybe the issues aren't so bad, maybe it is just the infamous NY/NJ bitch attitude.
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camhead
May 30, 2008, 12:56 PM
Post #114 of 228
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fjclimbsrocks wrote: WVUCLMBR wrote: This is why you won't see WVUCLMBR @ the gunks anytime soon....sure we get our fare share of trad-tards, but this seems like a whole mountain full of them. That's a pretty stupid attitude. Do you mean to tell me that beginners at your local crag have never made stupid mistakes? I doubt it. You could also come to the Gunks and climb routes above 5.8 or 5.9. I'm sure others will agree, nOObs rarely tread above 5.8 there. The weekdays also happen to be relatively nOOb free. But if you are scared by a few nOObs on a busy weekend, by all means, stay home.
Sorry dude, I agree with WVU. The Gunks are very crowded, which of course means more idiots. Furthermore, the area is frequented by urbanites who tend to exhibit the regular big-city paranoia, unfriendliness, and sense of entitlement at the crags.
A crag just as crowded as the Gunks, but in, say, Tennessee would be a very different, and in my opinion, more pleasant climbing experience.
heh.
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happiegrrrl
May 30, 2008, 1:42 PM
Post #115 of 228
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I climbed at the Big South Fork(TN) once.... Pretty much the Gunks except on the wilderness end of the spectrum. The place was stellar and I saw no other climbers the entire time. Of course....I was too weak to climb any of the routes, but that's another issue. The person I was with took me to a couple places, including one area of 3 huge amphitheatres of overhanging(steeply, like sport climb overhang) multipitch GEAR routes. One after another, mostly unclimbed routes at that time. Like 300 feet. It was pretty impressive.
But he also insisted on having a gun in the van. In case. And it was a non-negotiable decision.
We did run into some rednecks and evidence thereof:
- an entire family unloading thpse ATV's and ripping it up. personnaly - I'd rather see Gunks gumbies screaming OFFFFFF BEEEELLLLAAAAAY!!!!! from the 60 ft anchor than that again.
- a group with fireworks out on a bridge. We went to say high and be friendly, but they were decidedly NOT wanting our intrusion.
- The camp area, just a wide space in an old lumber road where a HUGE boulder apparently once rolled off the hill and closed that road forever, had a firepit with gross, dirty Pamper diapers and tin cans, beer bottles, chip bags, etc. Multipurpose - fire and trash pit, I guess.
- The big boulder was graffittied, but not in an arty way.
So....everywhere's different, I guess. The Gunks has always been a friendly place for me, and it's easy enough to avoid interacting with 'type A" types - just walk away..... I know there are a lot of stories about the crowding, but I was able to get on every single route I wanted on both days last weekend, and only one was there a party already on. We simply did another route and came back afterward to an empty route.
Millbrook is a short hike away if one wants quite. Or....walk past the Uberfall/Guide Wall and other hotspots on the weekends. The Nears is quiet once you pass the Gelsa area on weekends too.
At any rate - If it's important for people to be in the wilderness, then so be it. I like that quiet myself and would love to get away in the future. It's fun to not see others for 5 days at a time. But the Gunks don't necessarily have to be the horror show that people make it out to be.
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hafilax
May 30, 2008, 6:55 PM
Post #116 of 228
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Beginners climb on the weekends. Go during the week.
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WVUCLMBR
May 30, 2008, 7:56 PM
Post #117 of 228
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First thanks for agreeing with me, it doesn't happen a lot.
A crag just like the gunks only not full of a-holes/n00bs? Maybe with the same type of rock even....in a nice remote peaceful valley or something.....wait a second, I was just there last weekend. It's called Seneca, and thank god for the gas prices keepin all you wadder drinkin crag-holes away.......West by God Virginia.....Vild_Unt_Vunderbar!!!!!!!
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bobruef
May 30, 2008, 8:21 PM
Post #118 of 228
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I'm afraid that I'm going to have to agree that the "atmosphere" at Seneca kicks the crap out of what you get in New Paltz. It's much more relaxed, social, and a cool community in general.
I miss it, but I also don't miss driving 3 hours to get there, and the density of high quality climbs up here is much better IMHO.
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Gmburns2000
May 30, 2008, 8:23 PM
Post #119 of 228
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WVUCLMBR wrote: First thanks for agreeing with me, it doesn't happen a lot. A crag just like the gunks only not full of a-holes/n00bs? Maybe with the same type of rock even....in a nice remote peaceful valley or something.....wait a second, I was just there last weekend. It's called Seneca, and thank god for the gas prices keepin all you wadder drinkin crag-holes away.......West by God Virginia.....Vild_Unt_Vunderbar!!!!!!!
Weren't you supposed to do a multi-day assault on a 30' pitch at some point? Not to hijack the thread, but have those pics been posted? Sorry if I missed them.
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WVUCLMBR
May 30, 2008, 8:30 PM
Post #120 of 228
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Yeah, the "Little Big Wall Epic" is in the works. Was gonna be this weekend but my belayer is out of town. I'm gonna take/post pics of my intended route next week. adatesman definately fufilled his part of the deal and I intend to put on quite the show.........
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knieveltech
May 30, 2008, 9:02 PM
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lucander wrote: Just out of curiosity, what - if anything - does "the public" think climbing rangers ought to do if they are notified about a situation like this? DL
Shoot the hostage.
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onceahardman
May 30, 2008, 9:12 PM
Post #123 of 228
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Hi Bob...
Just to make a couple points...for quality of crag, the gunks are very close to the top of the line- great rock, outrageous exposure at moderate grades, easy access, really high quality. The scene is weird, but controllable if you don't have to do high exposure, or anything around the uberfall.
FYI, I've done High ex a bunch of times, so I'm well aware of the "right side, left side" of the arete issues that have caused a little confusion here.
On to a (theoretical) technical point...lets say that in the situation you witnessed, the third climber in party A was hanging in space, but could NOT be lowered to the GT ledge. (ie no ledge there, and/or unconscious, autoblocked top belay, etc). Such that a "Eiger Tragedy" of rope cutting could NOT be avoided. WHY didn't party B make the same anchor, toss the stuck climber the rope, have her tie in, THEN...use the anchor by "the move" as an intermediate protection point, and belay the fall from the GT ledge, thus lowering the fall factor to <1?
I hope the explanation was clear. A factor two onto webbing was seen as the BEST option? that's what gets me the most.
Anyway, I'm glad it worked out. Thanks for your pic, and input.
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fjclimbsrocks
May 30, 2008, 9:33 PM
Post #124 of 228
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camhead wrote: fjclimbsrocks wrote: WVUCLMBR wrote: This is why you won't see WVUCLMBR @ the gunks anytime soon....sure we get our fare share of trad-tards, but this seems like a whole mountain full of them. That's a pretty stupid attitude. Do you mean to tell me that beginners at your local crag have never made stupid mistakes? I doubt it. You could also come to the Gunks and climb routes above 5.8 or 5.9. I'm sure others will agree, nOObs rarely tread above 5.8 there. The weekdays also happen to be relatively nOOb free. But if you are scared by a few nOObs on a busy weekend, by all means, stay home. Sorry dude, I agree with WVU. The Gunks are very crowded, which of course means more idiots. Furthermore, the area is frequented by urbanites who tend to exhibit the regular big-city paranoia, unfriendliness, and sense of entitlement at the crags. A crag just as crowded as the Gunks, but in, say, Tennessee would be a very different, and in my opinion, more pleasant climbing experience. heh.
Your loss. I'm happy to agree to disagree. More Gunks for me.
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bobruef
May 30, 2008, 9:40 PM
Post #125 of 228
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onceahardman wrote: Hi Bob... Just to make a couple points...for quality of crag, the gunks are very close to the top of the line- great rock, outrageous exposure at moderate grades, easy access, really high quality. The scene is weird, but controllable if you don't have to do high exposure, or anything around the uberfall.
agreed
onceahardman wrote: FYI, I've done High ex a bunch of times, so I'm well aware of the "right side, left side" of the arete issues that have caused a little confusion here. On to a (theoretical) technical point...lets say that in the situation you witnessed, the third climber in party A was hanging in space, but could NOT be lowered to the GT ledge. (ie no ledge there, and/or unconscious, autoblocked top belay, etc). Such that a "Eiger Tragedy" of rope cutting could NOT be avoided. WHY didn't party B make the same anchor, toss the stuck climber the rope, have her tie in, THEN...use the anchor by "the move" as an intermediate protection point, and belay the fall from the GT ledge, thus lowering the fall factor to <1? I hope the explanation was clear. A factor two onto webbing was seen as the BEST option? that's what gets me the most. Anyway, I'm glad it worked out. Thanks for your pic, and input.
To clarify, I didn't witness the scene. I was on other stuff that day. The post with the details was from Eman on Gunks.com as indicated by the quotes.
As for the hypothetical situation, even though High E is steep,
Both the first and second party could have done any number of things that would've made the situation turn out better, like simply lowering the two seconds of the 1st party, not tying in so short, or any of several suggestions already made in this thread. A locked up ATC-guide in self braking mode is not THAT difficult to release, and anyone who uses one should have practice in releasing it. Even if lowering her on the right side would've put her in a tough spot, it still wouldn't be hard to maneuver her, even unconscious, onto the GT w/ a little ingenuity.
The problem, as it has been described does not sound like a problem that suffered from a lack of technical options, but rather a lack of judgement by those involved.
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