Before the Ice Age humans didn't eat meat, and we ate mostly a vegetarian diet, afterwards we ate meat, when vegetation wasn't readily available.

The mainstream view among anthropologists is that the increases in human brain-size occurred well before the advent of cooking (common around 250,000 years ago), due to a shift away from the consumption of nuts and berries to the consumption of meat.

Human nutrition

Humans are omnivorous, capable of consuming plant, animal, and inorganic material.[84][85] Varying with available food sources in regions of habitation, and also varying with cultural and religious norms, human groups have adopted a range of diets, from purely vegetarian to primarily carnivorous. In some cases, dietary restrictions in humans can lead to deficiency diseases; however, stable human groups have adapted to many dietary patterns through both genetic specialization and cultural conventions to use nutritionally balanced food sources.[86] The human diet is prominently reflected in human culture, and has led to the development of food science.

Until the development of agriculture approximately 10,000 years ago, Homo sapiens employed a hunter-gatherer method as their sole means of food collection. This involved combining stationary food sources (such as fruits, grains, tubers, and mushrooms, insect larvae and aquatic molluscs) with wild game, which must be hunted and killed in order to be consumed.[87] It has been proposed that members of H. sapiens have used fire to prepare and cook food since the time of their divergence from Homo rhodesiensis (which itself had previously speciated from Homo erectus).[88] Around ten thousand years ago, humans developed agriculture,[89] which substantially altered their diet. This change in diet may also have altered human biology; with the spread of dairy farming providing a new and rich source of food, leading to the evolution of the ability to digest lactose in some adults.[90][91] Agriculture led to increased populations, the development of cities, and because of increased population density, the wider spread of infectious diseases. The types of food consumed, and the way in which they are prepared, has varied widely by time, location, and culture.

In general, humans can survive for two to eight weeks without food, depending on stored body fat. Survival without water is usually limited to three or four days. About 36 million humans starve to death every year, due to lack of edible materials in their habitats.[92] Childhood malnutrition is also common and contributes to the global burden of disease.[93] However global food distribution is not even, and obesity among some human populations has increased rapidly, leading to health complications and increased mortality in some developed, and a few developing countries. Worldwide over one billion people are obese,[94] while in the United States 35% of people are obese, leading to this being described as an "obesity epidemic".[95] Obesity is caused by consuming more calories than are expended, so excessive weight gain is usually caused by a combination of an energy-dense high fat diet and insufficient exercise.[94]

I've been nearly vegan for over a month now. I say 'nearly' because I am allowing myself to have the eggs from our local farm share. I am doing my best to not participate in industrial agriculture. It's not sustainable & it makes us sick.

Here are changes that I've noticed so far:

I need to drink more water.
I have more energy.
I feel more awake in general.
I am happier.
I can't drink as much beer.
My stomach aches are gone.

That being said, it wasn't a hard jump for me because the only animal based food that I had been eating before had been dairy.

So Climbers who eat meat vs vegetarian who has more endurance and climbs better? Or it doesn't matter?

Maybe you are just dairy-sensitive then?

If God had of meant us to be vegetarians, he wouldn't have made cows out of meat.

Meatatarians unite.

So Climbers who eat meat vs vegetarian who has more endurance and climbs better? Or it doesn't matter?

and he wouldn't have made them so damn tasty

I've been nearly vegan for over a month now. I say 'nearly' because I am allowing myself to have the eggs from our local farm share....
Here are changes that I've noticed so far:

I need to drink more water.
I have more energy.
I feel more awake in general.
I am happier.
I can't drink as much beer.
My stomach aches are gone.

That being said, it wasn't a hard jump for me because the only animal based food that I had been eating before had been dairy.

First, there is no such thing as "nearly vegan", just as there isn't the condition of being nearly pregnant. As long as you're eating eggs, you're an ovo-vegetarian.

Being a strict vegan is probably harder than you think. You would also have to avoid:

many wines and beers - isinglass (a very pure form of gelatin from sturgeon fish bladders), gelatin (extract from boiled cow's or pig's hooves and sinews), egg whites (or albumin) and casein (mile protein) are all used in the production of wines and beers and are not vegan

Actually, since wine and beer must be made with yeast, you wouldn't drink them on that basis alone (if you're psychotic about being vegan).

Foods containing gelatin.

Vegetables (even organic) that are produced by using animal blood and bone meal as fertilizers.

Honey.

And if you're really strict...

you don't use anything made of fur, leather, or wool

soaps containing lanolin (made from wool) or made from animal fat

rennet (an enzyme found in the stomach of calves, young goats, and lambs that's used in cheese-making)

silk (made by silkworms)

shellac (the resinous secretion of the tiny lac insect)

cochineal (a red dye derived from the cochineal insect)

toothpaste containing calcium extracted from animal bones

for the most part, i follow the michael pollan rule, "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." i don't do dairy, other than a small bit of cheese because it makes me feel like crap. i try to shop locally, and never eat fast food, and keep the crap junk food out of the house.


i could never give up my murphy's stout

And without seeing a shred of evidence that the foods I eat are bad for me, I enjoy eating a variety of good foods too much to give up anything in particular.

No one food is particularly bad. There are no junk foods - only junk diets.

I eat sugar, drink coffee, eat meat... And I am pretty sure that giving up on all those won't get me climbing harder.

To choose a diet ONLY to climb harder seems to go against any traditionalist views, I think. Gotta be a sport climber thang!

That is a typical example of something that is technically vegetarian, but probably just as bad for you, if not worse, than the real bacon would be.

Remember that breaded, deep-fried vegetables slathered with mayo or melted cheese are vegetarian as well.

A serving of McDonald's oatmeal (with cream and sugar) contains 290 calories - a McDonald's cheeseburger contains....300.

There are numerous other examples.

A serving of McDonald's oatmeal (with cream and sugar) contains 290 calories - a McDonald's cheeseburger contains....300.

There are numerous other examples.

i have a friend who is a chubby vegetarian. the last time i saw him, he was eating deep fried mozzarella sticks.

Actually, since wine and beer must be made with yeast, you wouldn't drink them on that basis alone (if you're psychotic about being vegan).

thats a good point. getting the required amount of protein from a veg diet means that you're also consuming tons of carbs.
example: a sugar-free peanut butter sandwich on whole grain bread can have 20 grams of protein but also has almost 500 calories.
3 large eggs have 20 grams of protein at around 220 calories.
in other words, if you're going vegan prepare to do a lot of cardio

If you're going to go to all the trouble of being vegan then one would think you'd buy beer that wasn't 'manufactured' with so many adjuncts.

I don't understand why vegans couldn't eat yeast.

jesus christ, get your quotes right. i'm a beer drinker, through and through, and not a vegan.

marc01 posted this.

I'm reporting this belligerent and probably drunken attack!

you can't, i'm a greenie

Before the Ice Age humans didn't eat meat, and we ate mostly a vegetarian diet, afterwards we ate meat, when vegetation wasn't readily available.

In addition monkeys and apes are excellent climbers and exist on vegetarian diet unless there is survival need for them to eat meat.

+1, except for the murphy's stout part.

I have experimented with being vegetarian for a while. I have tried giving up all gluten foods and dairy for a month when I was helping a friend transition to gluten-free dairy-free diet.

I can honestly say that I have never felt any different, regardless of what I was eating. I have always eat healthily, following seasonal diet, more or less, with big emphasis on fresh and local fruits and veggies, and local organic meat, dairy and eggs. But I have never felt any different when I had given up meat, or dairy, or anything else. I've never had any stomachaches, headaches, bloating, heartburn, flatulence, or any other symptoms that people commonly cite as being affected by their food choices.

And without seeing a shred of evidence that the foods I eat are bad for me, I enjoy eating a variety of good foods too much to give up anything in particular.

You don't know what you're talking about. Vegans on average are leaner than either omnivores or ovo-lacto-vegetarians.

Jay

Simmer down Jay. My point was that with a veg diet, protein and carbs go hand in hand as opposed to meat wich is protein without carbs.

of course vegans are leaner on average than omnivores. the average vegan is an extremely health conscious person. the average omnivore doesn't give a fuck.

I eat a lot of fish, which is one of the healthiest things one can eat.

I'm vegetarian 94.4% of the time...that is- since I only eat meat 3 or 4 times/day, and it only takes me 20 or so minutes to eat, there are roughly 22.66 hours/day that I'm not consuming animal products. If giving up meat 94.4% of the time didn't improve my climbing, I'm pretty sure eliminating that last 5.6 % of the time won't make me any better either.

If you're going to go to all the trouble of being vegan then one would think you'd buy beer that wasn't 'manufactured' with so many adjuncts.

I don't understand why vegans couldn't eat yeast.

Shocking as it may seem, I've met some poorly educated vegans...

While I agree that fish is really healthy and tasty, be careful not to eat tuna, swordfish, and other large fish species with great regularity. Courtesy of bioaccumulation, they can contain a ton of mercury, which can really fuck you up. Jeremy Piven is a good example.

You still don't know what you're talking about. You still think "carbs" make you fat, which is untrue; you still think that in order to get sufficient protein on a vegan diet you have to consume "a ton of carbs," which is untrue; you still don't understand that vegan diets tend to be slimming, because they are less energy dense than omnivore diets (ie, they contain more fiber and less fat); and basically you're still talking out your ass on a topic you know nothing about.

Jay

You still think "carbs" make you fat, which is untrue

you still think that in order to get sufficient protein on a vegan diet you have to consume "a ton of carbs," which is untrue

you still don't understand that vegan diets tend to be slimming

I am doing my best to not participate in industrial agriculture. It's not sustainable & it makes us sick.

I've never said that; nor do I believe it. You've only insinuated that I belive it.

Other than nuts and soy based products. what sources of protein are vegan and do not also have carbs?

I agree vegan diets tend to be slimming but they are not slimming per se. it's still possible to be a vegan and be overweight.

What is "industrial"? Do you only buy from Amish farmers? Does driving to the farm make it not sustainable? Is there a yield per acer needed to be sustainable?

And for the record, eat more snails - the real first domesticated animal.

I also have done as above, with the exact same results. My little experiment was around four months though.

Burly Bob

Yes - I know (but have yet to understand why) you are in favor of industrial agriculture. I do not want to eat animals that have been fed growth hormones & antibiotics, all the while covered in their own shit that overflows into the nearest watershed. I would rather support local organic farmers whose produce lasts a lot longer in my fridge rather than gnaw on some limp, colorless carrot that's been shipped halfway across the world & is covered in pesticide. Fresher produce retains nutrients longer & tastes better.

I guess it's a personal preference, though.

What is "industrial"? Do you only buy from Amish farmers? Does driving to the farm make it not sustainable? Is there a yield per acer needed to be sustainable?

you still think that in order to get sufficient protein on a vegan diet you have to consume "a ton of carbs," which is untrue

And if you believe that then why should someone "going vegan prepare to do a lot of 'cardio'"?

Yes - I know (but have yet to understand why) you are in favor of industrial agriculture. I do not want to eat animals that have been fed growth hormones & antibiotics, all the while covered in their own shit that overflows into the nearest watershed. I would rather support local organic farmers whose produce lasts a lot longer in my fridge rather than gnaw on some limp, colorless carrot that's been shipped halfway across the world & is covered in pesticide. Fresher produce retains nutrients longer & tastes better.

I guess it's a personal preference, though.

did Toast actually say he was in favour of industrial farming? i get the point he's making, about industrial farming. what defines industrial farming. Maybe factory farming is a more apt description.

i also have issues with the word "organic". there are no real regulations with regards to what makes something organic.

i also have issues with the word "organic". there are no real regulations with regards to what makes something organic.

Since others have beaten to death that your first assertion is incorrect, let me move on to the second.
Monkeys are indeed adept climbers, but our side of the family tree, the great apes, not so much. Our closest relatives, the chimpanzees and bonobos, are not skilled climbers. They also aren't vegetarians, but that was already pointed out.

Nonsense. Chimps are reasonably decent climbers, and orangutans are excellent. Another ape in our family is the gibbon - one of the best climbers in all the animal kingdom.

GO

Yes - I know (but have yet to understand why) you are in favor of industrial agriculture. I do not want to eat animals that have been fed growth hormones & antibiotics, all the while covered in their own shit that overflows into the nearest watershed. I would rather support local organic farmers whose produce lasts a lot longer in my fridge rather than gnaw on some limp, colorless carrot that's been shipped halfway across the world & is covered in pesticide. Fresher produce retains nutrients longer & tastes better.

I guess it's a personal preference, though.

maybe so but could a Gibbon beat Daniel Woods in a redpoint format bouldering comp?? someone needs to set that shit up.

I'll buy that gibbon all the bananas it could ever want if it beats Daniel Woods with a boulder, or any blunt object.

Nonsense. Chimps are reasonably decent climbers, and orangutans are excellent. Another ape in our family is the gibbon - one of the best climbers in all the animal kingdom.

GO

Yes - I know (but have yet to understand why) you are in favor of industrial agriculture.

I do not want to eat animals that have been fed growth hormones & antibiotics, all the while covered in their own shit that overflows into the nearest watershed.

I would rather support local organic farmers whose produce lasts a lot longer in my fridge rather than gnaw on some limp, colorless carrot that's been shipped halfway across the world & is covered in pesticide. Fresher produce retains nutrients longer & tastes better.

Nonsense. Chimps are reasonably decent climbers, and orangutans are excellent. Another ape in our family is the gibbon - one of the best climbers in all the animal kingdom.

GO

I'm just going by every food conversation that I have had with Toast. If Toast is not pro - industrial agg, then i apologize. But i would love to hear from Toast because I'm pretty well convinced.

My CSA is organic. I agree that the labeling criteria is too loose. But that's also a result of big agriculture lobbying for looser regulations.

The diet and cleanliness are independent factors. The recent regulations were more of an impact to smaller operations than larger ones. It is the larger companies that can afford to find out if there is a pathogen, smaller operations only hope they don't have a problem and have no traceability.

Not to mention that farm raised fish have higher levels of dioxins & other toxicants due to their 'feed'. They really only warn pregnant women / women of childbearing age & children about the Hg levels in predator fish due to potentially harming brain development. But you're right. Mercury isn't really good for anybody.

This WHOLE thread. is a big WTF!

RC.com do yourselfs a favor and stick to climbing.

This WHOLE thread. is a big WTF!

RC.com do yourselfs a favor and stick to climbing.

Hmm... mid-sentence periods, pluralized selfs, and the assumption that we actually climb worth a damn makes your post a bigger "WTF" to me than this thread (aside from the OP suggesting that "the ice age" (which one?) commenced our journey toward tasty meats).

My GF and I have bought 1/8 of a cow from a friend's farm. It's not certified organic but it is grass fed and free range. We've also started buying produce from an organic delivery service that focuses on local or nearby seasonal produce.

We still eat a lot of non-organic foods and it certainly doesn't rule our lives but small differences are still differences.

Gibbons rock! Here are a few youtube vids.

Check out this video of a gibbon brachiating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRJA8pZ8JCA

How 'bout the guns on this guy (and the grace!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acy--k7Qww0

How 'bout that double-dyno starting at 0:19 Holy crap!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLSVt9CWSpc

GO

I've never said that; nor do I believe it. You've only insinuated that I belive it.

Other than nuts and soy based products. what sources of protein are vegan and do not also have carbs?

I agree vegan diets tend to be slimming but they are not slimming per se. it's still possible to be a vegan and be overweight.

While this may be true (that larger companies can afford testing), unfortunately that has not worked so well in the past, whether speaking of meat or veggies. If you have a small-scale operation in which the chances of contamination are orders of magnitude lower, the need for testing is reduced dramatically.

Essentially, if you have shit in the food (veiled nicely as E. Coli or coliform), you need to find it. If your operation is meticulous enough to keep it out of the food, what exactly would one be testing for? If one must irradiate the food to make it safe, one must test that equipment. Why not instead clean machines after each animal or vegetable run?

That is the fundamental problem with industrial farming. When throughput takes a higher priority than food quality and safety, we have issues. Most of this, of course, would go away if public viewing of the processing facilities was permissible and seed companies (or seed company?) were not true monopolies that trade CEOs with the USDA.

None come to mind, but why are you so preoccupied with "carbs" in the first place?

Jay

Yes - I know (but have yet to understand why) you are in favor of industrial agriculture. I do not want to eat animals that have been fed growth hormones & antibiotics, all the while covered in their own shit that overflows into the nearest watershed. I would rather support local organic farmers whose produce lasts a lot longer in my fridge rather than gnaw on some limp, colorless carrot that's been shipped halfway across the world & is covered in pesticide. Fresher produce retains nutrients longer & tastes better.

I guess it's a personal preference, though.

Before the Ice Age humans didn't eat meat, and we ate mostly a vegetarian diet, afterwards we ate meat, when vegetation wasn't readily available.
Climbers who generally are dirtbagging often don't include perishable foods in their diet as well. Personally I have known quite a few vegan climbers who are excellent.
In addition monkeys and apes are excellent climbers and exist on vegetarian diet unless there is survival need for them to eat meat.

So Climbers who eat meat vs vegetarian who has more endurance and climbs better? Or it doesn't matter?

I don't really want to read this whole thread, but my personal thoughts are...
I feel like as a society we've moved past the point where killing animals is necessary in keeping us healthy and alive. If you feel that your happiness is more important than animals' lives then that's fine, but it's not for me.
I really really REALLY don't care about how much healthier someone that eats meat is going to be than me, because for me it's completely a moral issue.
I haven't consumed animal products in 5 years, and I'm doing fine. Is there a chance I'm less healthy than someone who is very aware of their diet? probably. But compared to most fast-food eating americans, I think I'm doing just fine.

I've been nearly vegan for over a month now. I say 'nearly' because I am allowing myself to have the eggs from our local farm share. I am doing my best to not participate in industrial agriculture. It's not sustainable & it makes us sick.

Here are changes that I've noticed so far:

I need to drink more water.
I have more energy.
I feel more awake in general.
I am happier.
I can't drink as much beer.
My stomach aches are gone.

That being said, it wasn't a hard jump for me because the only animal based food that I had been eating before had been dairy.

Not really true. The levels of dioxins, PCB and PAH har been considerably reduced in the last ten years. And the "feed" does not change that in any way.

Adults would need to eat a lot to get any neurological damage.The biggest problems have been in relation to large industrial spills in lakes and harbors.

The risk for larger companies is in a larger impact. I have seen no studies on size and the relationship to cleanliness of butchery. I've seen small back room butchers that were far sloppier with sanitation than some mega producers. The difference is that now we can track the bug back with it's DNA footprint. A small operation doesn't have enough people get sick to be able to trace the bugs back to them. It doesn't mean they have a lower percent get sick, just fewer people.

The same profit margin pressure that tempts big companies exists for smaller ones as well, profits vs safety vs quality isn't exclusive to food or big ag.

Placebo is a hell of a drug.

Wouldn't that be un-placebo? Since nothing has taken it's place? I just cut the dairy out.

Honest question:

Do you see any particular proscriptive diet (that is, vegetarian, vegan, etc) as being more conducive to meeting your recommended fat/carb/protein proportions for weight loss for climbers?

Wouldn't that be un-placebo? Since nothing has taken it's place? I just cut the dairy out.

I don't really want to read this whole thread, but my personal thoughts are...
I feel like as a society we've moved past the point where killing animals is necessary in keeping us healthy and alive. If you feel that your happiness is more important than animals' lives then that's fine, but it's not for me.
I really really REALLY don't care about how much healthier someone that eats meat is going to be than me, because for me it's completely a moral issue.
I haven't consumed animal products in 5 years, and I'm doing fine. Is there a chance I'm less healthy than someone who is very aware of their diet? probably. But compared to most fast-food eating americans, I think I'm doing just fine.

it had to do what animals eat so buying beef that only eats corn and other cheap substitute is not the same as a cow eating high nutrition grass found in nature. Same thing applies to fish grown in fish farms vs fish in the river or the ones in ocean. I also noticed that high quality veggies last longer in the frig vs cheap ones. When I buy stuff off trader joes, they have a tendency to last longer vs same product I buy off Safeway.