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gunksgoer
May 30, 2008, 11:02 PM
Post #127 of 228
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I find this to be very amusing. In fact, its exactly why I avoided the gunks over the weekend and went surfing. Also, If anyone has ever been terrified to make the move and heard "ITS A JUG!!!" shouted up from the carriage road, that was me.
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stymingersfink
May 31, 2008, 12:01 AM
Post #129 of 228
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Registered: Aug 12, 2003
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I've yet to get to the Gunks, but I'd like to climb there sometime. However, with all the beta being thrown around in this thread you guys have totally ruined my chance to get the onsight of this route that I was fully entitled to. Thanks. Thanks a lot. And FWIW, the fall onto the sling should have been less than a FF2, probably more like a <FF1 penji. Still, having experienced one of those once, I would have to say they are less than enjoyable, and highly memorable. A good motivator to prevent such things from occurring in the future at the least.
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angry
May 31, 2008, 9:35 AM
Post #130 of 228
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Registered: Jul 22, 2003
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Off topic here, I guess. In rigging a slackline, you pull a hell of a lot of stretch out of the webbing. It can't be totally static. I guess I rigged a tightrope with a static line once and still pulled a hell of a lot of stretch out of it. I can't remember which stretches more. That 1-2% seems low for both from what I recall. It is 3:30 in the morning and I've got a beer in my hand, so whatever.
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stymingersfink
May 31, 2008, 10:19 AM
Post #131 of 228
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angry wrote: Off topic here, I guess. In rigging a slackline, you pull a hell of a lot of stretch out of the webbing. It can't be totally static. I guess I rigged a tightrope with a static line once and still pulled a hell of a lot of stretch out of it. I can't remember which stretches more. That 1-2% seems low for both from what I recall. It is 3:30 in the morning and I've got a beer in my hand, so whatever. IDK which has more stretch when comparing low-stretch static line and nylon webbing... nylon has more stretch than dyneema or spectra though. my daisy fall was caught by a spectra daisy, not too high FF, still pretty nasty (when compared to being caught by a dynamic rope). Wouldn't recommend it for anyone. Period. it's 4:19a.m. MST. Got a minute? ah, nevermind. I'm off to bed. lates.
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cracklover
Jun 3, 2008, 2:58 PM
Post #132 of 228
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Registered: Nov 14, 2002
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Finally someone who actually was involved posted this:
Tim_on_Gunks.com wrote: I am very surprised how many people judged without having all the information. I was in the party of three on the ledge that rescued the girl. She was hanging over the roof and was on a path to total panic. She was dangling in thin air and could not climb over the roof. We tried to get the leader to lower her down to the ledge but there was no response. After several minutes we were not confident the leader could handle the situation at hand. Our lead climber ascended to the roof with our second rope and setup and anchor. He put the rope through the anchor, which was slightly above her waist. She was close enough to grab our rope and tie in using a figure 8 knot. Then I put on her on belay. With the rope tight her feet were about a foot or so from the cliff. Still we heard nothing from her leader. Therefore we suggested she cut the rope and when she did she landed softly on to the cliff as if on a top rope. Then I lowered to the ledge. We got her safely to the repel station and got her down to the ground safely. The lesson here is not to have inexperienced climbers cowtailed together 15 feet apart on any climb, let alone one like HE. From the moment they started the climb we all thought they could easily get into trouble. GO
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c4c
Jun 3, 2008, 3:18 PM
Post #133 of 228
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Registered: Jun 18, 2006
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gunksgoer wrote: I find this to be very amusing. In fact, its exactly why I avoided the gunks over the weekend and went surfing. Also, If anyone has ever been terrified to make the move and heard "ITS A JUG!!!" shouted up from the carriage road, that was me. Everything at the gunks is a jug. or "very positive" at least.
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hyhuu
Jun 3, 2008, 3:40 PM
Post #134 of 228
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Registered: Jul 25, 2001
Posts: 492
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Have you climbed "Welcome to the Gunks" ?
c4c wrote: Everything at the gunks is a jug. or "very positive" at least.
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rrrADAM
Jun 3, 2008, 3:48 PM
Post #135 of 228
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Registered: Dec 19, 1999
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Karen and I didn't have quite the same excitement when we climbed it:
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getout87
Jun 4, 2008, 5:54 PM
Post #136 of 228
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Registered: Dec 30, 2007
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So, after reading the first hand post, I'm glad to hear that the rescue wasn't as much of a cluster as we had first thought. Still incredibly dumb on the leader of the first party's part though, he could have saved all that trouble.
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 4, 2008, 6:28 PM
Post #137 of 228
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Registered: Nov 19, 2002
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cracklover wrote: Finally someone who actually was involved posted this: Tim_on_Gunks.com wrote: I am very surprised how many people judged without having all the information. I was in the party of three on the ledge that rescued the girl. She was hanging over the roof and was on a path to total panic. She was dangling in thin air and could not climb over the roof. We tried to get the leader to lower her down to the ledge but there was no response. After several minutes we were not confident the leader could handle the situation at hand. Our lead climber ascended to the roof with our second rope and setup and anchor. He put the rope through the anchor, which was slightly above her waist. She was close enough to grab our rope and tie in using a figure 8 knot. Then I put on her on belay. With the rope tight her feet were about a foot or so from the cliff. Still we heard nothing from her leader. Therefore we suggested she cut the rope and when she did she landed softly on to the cliff as if on a top rope. Then I lowered to the ledge. We got her safely to the repel station and got her down to the ground safely. The lesson here is not to have inexperienced climbers cowtailed together 15 feet apart on any climb, let alone one like HE. From the moment they started the climb we all thought they could easily get into trouble. GO THanks, Gabe. I am very curious, though, was the leader peeved that his rope was cut. I see a potential accident every time I go there. Instead of complaining about it, however, I am usually on the ready to help, if need be. I am glad someone else feels that way to and rushed into action. Josh
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elvislegs
Jun 4, 2008, 6:55 PM
Post #138 of 228
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Registered: May 24, 2002
Posts: 3148
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cracklover wrote: Finally someone who actually was involved posted this: Tim_on_Gunks.com wrote: I am very surprised how many people judged without having all the information. I was in the party of three on the ledge that rescued the girl. She was hanging over the roof and was on a path to total panic. She was dangling in thin air and could not climb over the roof. We tried to get the leader to lower her down to the ledge but there was no response. After several minutes we were not confident the leader could handle the situation at hand. Our lead climber ascended to the roof with our second rope and setup and anchor. He put the rope through the anchor, which was slightly above her waist. She was close enough to grab our rope and tie in using a figure 8 knot. Then I put on her on belay. With the rope tight her feet were about a foot or so from the cliff. Still we heard nothing from her leader. Therefore we suggested she cut the rope and when she did she landed softly on to the cliff as if on a top rope. Then I lowered to the ledge. We got her safely to the repel station and got her down to the ground safely. The lesson here is not to have inexperienced climbers cowtailed together 15 feet apart on any climb, let alone one like HE. From the moment they started the climb we all thought they could easily get into trouble. GO ...and with that, the armchair internet salad tossing came to an end.
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knieveltech
Jun 4, 2008, 7:30 PM
Post #139 of 228
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Registered: Dec 2, 2006
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elvislegs wrote: ...and with that, the armchair internet salad tossing came to an end. Clearly you underestimate the willingness of forum goers to continue tossing salad well after the point of diminishing returns has been reached.
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olderic
Jun 4, 2008, 7:33 PM
Post #140 of 228
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Registered: Oct 17, 2003
Posts: 1539
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Because I have mutiple crisis in process at work I need a divergence so will try my hand at stirring the pot a bit - don't want the unasked for advice being given from the cheap seats to end I guess - this all has been very entertaining. So: I think the encouragement and assistence in cutting the rope was an extreme act of showboating and granstanding on the part of party 2. If they were able to set up an anchor above the victim and take some of the weight off (you can now all pontificate about your N to 1 pulley systems or you could have just pulled on the 2nd rope) then she could have worked on simply untieing the knot (yes I am sure it was "welded shut" after all her thrashing - but there was no rush). And that leads to my main point - this seems to be a case of trying to rush to a solution. What was the rush - darkness, storm, serious PHYSICAL injury? - I haven't heard evidence of any of those. Did anyone make an effort to contact the leader (who after all was the key figure) besides bellowing? If someone was able to get in position to establish an anchor above the victim they should have been able to climb past and to the top. Alternatively climb another pitch (last of Double-issima or the top pitch of the rap route) or maybe just walk out right on the GT ledge towards the rap route where bellowing communications would have worked. In summary I think some one was a little over anxious to use the old belay knife trick. And maybe the fault shouldn't all be directed at party 2 - seems like enough other people were around gawking, taking pictues etc. but no one was making a serious effort of communicating with the leader on top.
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happiegrrrl
Jun 4, 2008, 9:30 PM
Post #141 of 228
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Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4660
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I'll toss a bit of gas on the fire, or at least shake out the near empty cup of booze left at the camp into the fire, too... ....and suggest that getting the last 10 feet lopped off his rope is the very least punishment the leader on party 1 should have received for such bad leadership!
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jsh
Jun 4, 2008, 10:23 PM
Post #142 of 228
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Registered: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 118
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I agree with you, Eric. Party 2 was too quick to hand a panicked newbie a knife. Other folks around, could have stepped in sooner, and should have stuck around to drill some sense into them later. But my primary concern is with the leader of the 1st party. I'd like to know exactly WTF the leader of Party 1 was doing. According to Eman, he rigged a pulley, which means two things: 1) he had some amount of rope skill, and thus could (should!) have figured out lowering them. 2) He was *not* back in the woods stuck to a frozen autoblock, and thus was in some position to communicate. He was moving around, had some skills, and could hear. So where was his input to all this? In my mind, if she'd died of a cut rope, it would have been his fault first.
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Adk
Jun 4, 2008, 10:27 PM
Post #143 of 228
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Registered: Dec 2, 2006
Posts: 1085
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Wow!! That was a big flair up in that fire. Easy with the gas!! I'd like blue cheese dressing on my salad...and pass me a beer! Saranac Pale Ale please! There is plenty behind your chair. I'm getting the smores ready
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jakedatc
Jun 4, 2008, 10:38 PM
Post #144 of 228
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Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
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olderic wrote: In summary I think some one was a little over anxious to use the old belay knife trick. And maybe the fault shouldn't all be directed at party 2 - seems like enough other people were around gawking, taking pictues etc. but no one was making a serious effort of communicating with the leader on top. Not to mention the dangers of having a knife in the hands of someone a)who's freaked out b)in an unstable place c) will then have multiple ropes attached and could become confused. then even if that is fine you still have a person falling with a knife.. near other people and gear. Or a knife falling 2 pitches down onto who knows how many people below. It isn't that hard to get up P3 of High E.. some one could have quickly led up it and either helped the belayer or taken over the controls to lower the girl down. I think "hey.. we're going to go up there and get him to lower you.. just hang tight (sigh pun)" woulda been much better then "here's a different rope and a knife"
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shockabuku
Jun 5, 2008, 1:04 AM
Post #145 of 228
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Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
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olderic wrote: Because I have mutiple crisis in process at work I need a divergence so will try my hand at stirring the pot a bit - don't want the unasked for advice being given from the cheap seats to end I guess - this all has been very entertaining. So: I think the encouragement and assistence in cutting the rope was an extreme act of showboating and granstanding on the part of party 2. If they were able to set up an anchor above the victim and take some of the weight off (you can now all pontificate about your N to 1 pulley systems or you could have just pulled on the 2nd rope) then she could have worked on simply untieing the knot (yes I am sure it was "welded shut" after all her thrashing - but there was no rush). And that leads to my main point - this seems to be a case of trying to rush to a solution. What was the rush - darkness, storm, serious PHYSICAL injury? - I haven't heard evidence of any of those. Did anyone make an effort to contact the leader (who after all was the key figure) besides bellowing? If someone was able to get in position to establish an anchor above the victim they should have been able to climb past and to the top. Alternatively climb another pitch (last of Double-issima or the top pitch of the rap route) or maybe just walk out right on the GT ledge towards the rap route where bellowing communications would have worked. In summary I think some one was a little over anxious to use the old belay knife trick. And maybe the fault shouldn't all be directed at party 2 - seems like enough other people were around gawking, taking pictues etc. but no one was making a serious effort of communicating with the leader on top.
happiegrrrl wrote: I'll toss a bit of gas on the fire, or at least shake out the near empty cup of booze left at the camp into the fire, too... ....and suggest that getting the last 10 feet lopped off his rope is the very least punishment the leader on party 1 should have received for such bad leadership!
jsh wrote: I agree with you, Eric. Party 2 was too quick to hand a panicked newbie a knife. Other folks around, could have stepped in sooner, and should have stuck around to drill some sense into them later. But my primary concern is with the leader of the 1st party. I'd like to know exactly WTF the leader of Party 1 was doing. According to Eman, he rigged a pulley, which means two things: 1) he had some amount of rope skill, and thus could (should!) have figured out lowering them. 2) He was *not* back in the woods stuck to a frozen autoblock, and thus was in some position to communicate. He was moving around, had some skills, and could hear. So where was his input to all this? In my mind, if she'd died of a cut rope, it would have been his fault first.
jakedatc wrote: olderic wrote: In summary I think some one was a little over anxious to use the old belay knife trick. And maybe the fault shouldn't all be directed at party 2 - seems like enough other people were around gawking, taking pictues etc. but no one was making a serious effort of communicating with the leader on top. Not to mention the dangers of having a knife in the hands of someone a)who's freaked out b)in an unstable place c) will then have multiple ropes attached and could become confused. then even if that is fine you still have a person falling with a knife.. near other people and gear. Or a knife falling 2 pitches down onto who knows how many people below. It isn't that hard to get up P3 of High E.. some one could have quickly led up it and either helped the belayer or taken over the controls to lower the girl down. I think "hey.. we're going to go up there and get him to lower you.. just hang tight (sigh pun)" woulda been much better then "here's a different rope and a knife" These statements/accusations are outrageous! I can't believe you people can't have more sympathy for this poor girl, probably on her first significant outdoor climbing experience, and realize how scared she could be not to mention that the leader was probably trying to do a good job but maybe just wasn't able to deal with things as fast as the party below. Shame on you!
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jakedatc
Jun 5, 2008, 1:44 AM
Post #146 of 228
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Registered: Mar 12, 2003
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exactly where was my accusation? I thought that my solution was far more safe and calming than giving the girl a fucking knife while dangling in the air. You think that telling her to cut her own rope will make her MORE calm than telling her that in a few minutes someone will go lower her down slowly? Did it work... yea.. do i think it was the best solution. no.
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bigredscowboy
Jun 5, 2008, 1:49 AM
Post #147 of 228
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Registered: Jul 30, 2007
Posts: 138
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Quick action is a necessity for a panicked noOb, but cutting the rope was a poor solution on the second parties part. Any number of other efficient solutions (prussik, pulley, etc.) could have been acted upon rather than handing a scared girl a sharp object and teaching her that this is the best way out of a poor situation.
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bobruef
Jun 5, 2008, 1:51 AM
Post #148 of 228
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Registered: Jul 22, 2005
Posts: 884
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shockabuku wrote: olderic wrote: Because I have mutiple crisis in process at work I need a divergence so will try my hand at stirring the pot a bit - don't want the unasked for advice being given from the cheap seats to end I guess - this all has been very entertaining. So: I think the encouragement and assistence in cutting the rope was an extreme act of showboating and granstanding on the part of party 2. If they were able to set up an anchor above the victim and take some of the weight off (you can now all pontificate about your N to 1 pulley systems or you could have just pulled on the 2nd rope) then she could have worked on simply untieing the knot (yes I am sure it was "welded shut" after all her thrashing - but there was no rush). And that leads to my main point - this seems to be a case of trying to rush to a solution. What was the rush - darkness, storm, serious PHYSICAL injury? - I haven't heard evidence of any of those. Did anyone make an effort to contact the leader (who after all was the key figure) besides bellowing? If someone was able to get in position to establish an anchor above the victim they should have been able to climb past and to the top. Alternatively climb another pitch (last of Double-issima or the top pitch of the rap route) or maybe just walk out right on the GT ledge towards the rap route where bellowing communications would have worked. In summary I think some one was a little over anxious to use the old belay knife trick. And maybe the fault shouldn't all be directed at party 2 - seems like enough other people were around gawking, taking pictues etc. but no one was making a serious effort of communicating with the leader on top. happiegrrrl wrote: I'll toss a bit of gas on the fire, or at least shake out the near empty cup of booze left at the camp into the fire, too... ....and suggest that getting the last 10 feet lopped off his rope is the very least punishment the leader on party 1 should have received for such bad leadership! jsh wrote: I agree with you, Eric. Party 2 was too quick to hand a panicked newbie a knife. Other folks around, could have stepped in sooner, and should have stuck around to drill some sense into them later. But my primary concern is with the leader of the 1st party. I'd like to know exactly WTF the leader of Party 1 was doing. According to Eman, he rigged a pulley, which means two things: 1) he had some amount of rope skill, and thus could (should!) have figured out lowering them. 2) He was *not* back in the woods stuck to a frozen autoblock, and thus was in some position to communicate. He was moving around, had some skills, and could hear. So where was his input to all this? In my mind, if she'd died of a cut rope, it would have been his fault first. jakedatc wrote: olderic wrote: In summary I think some one was a little over anxious to use the old belay knife trick. And maybe the fault shouldn't all be directed at party 2 - seems like enough other people were around gawking, taking pictues etc. but no one was making a serious effort of communicating with the leader on top. Not to mention the dangers of having a knife in the hands of someone a)who's freaked out b)in an unstable place c) will then have multiple ropes attached and could become confused. then even if that is fine you still have a person falling with a knife.. near other people and gear. Or a knife falling 2 pitches down onto who knows how many people below. It isn't that hard to get up P3 of High E.. some one could have quickly led up it and either helped the belayer or taken over the controls to lower the girl down. I think "hey.. we're going to go up there and get him to lower you.. just hang tight (sigh pun)" woulda been much better then "here's a different rope and a knife" These statements/accusations are outrageous! I can't believe you people can't have more sympathy for this poor girl, probably on her first significant outdoor climbing experience, and realize how scared she could be not to mention that the leader was probably trying to do a good job but maybe just wasn't able to deal with things as fast as the party below. Shame on you! I've read these quoted statements through three times and have yet to find criticism of the girl. On the contrary, it seems the criticisms being leveled are centered around the position she was reportedly put in by both parties involved.
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rangerrob
Jun 5, 2008, 2:21 AM
Post #149 of 228
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Registered: Apr 8, 2003
Posts: 641
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Why is everyone so up in arms about a rope being cut? It's not like this is a total taboo. whether she untied, or cut the rope makes little difference in the end, except that the dumbass whos rope it was now has a short rope. Why would anyone but him care about that. I just don't know where all this " You should NEVER EVER cut the rope crap comes from. Climbers wind up cutting their ropes for all sorts of situations, including dangling beginners in a sheer state of petrification. Shit, I've heard of guides literally shoving and throwing their clients off the edge when the client was too scared to move. Maybe peopl ejust like to make bigger issues out of things than they really are. RR
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onceahardman
Jun 5, 2008, 2:35 AM
Post #150 of 228
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Registered: Aug 3, 2007
Posts: 2493
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"Wrap the rope around you, John...Now, cut the rope above you"... "YOU'RE LIMPING, BEN"... "Cut the rope above you, John"... You're limping, Ben...
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